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| Posted on 2008-11-21 01:39:30 |
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| laaran |
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I don't really expect an answer.
Yet there is a connection with the forum.
The question is about the english-french war that lasted around from 1337 to 1453.
But not about french or english people. These ones were in war, that was a war, simple, it is written in many books.
It is about Sweden.
According to some historians, swedish people stopped selling iron to english people from 1400 to 1453. A way to say "we don't support your actual war against France".
According to some french historians (some, I really have no possibility to know the opinion of "most" french historian about it), there are no proofs of that. And swedish or english people just did hide (or destroy) the documents concerning trade of iron from 1400 to 1453.
So there are two possibilities :
- swedish people tried to do something to stop the war. It is not an heroic action, but that remains an action anti-war.
- swedish people did nothing at all, just kept making money with their iron, and did hide the documents about it.
It is a long time ago, and the population in Sweden was much smaller than it is now. We can't say "these are the same swedish people". So it is not really about today. I suppose that most swedish people know nothing of that story.
The point is rather about moral and power.
In that time, the swedish people had some power with their control of iron mines. Did these "powerful" people try to stop a war during the middle-age ? Can we hope there was some kind of moral during that period (that so many historians call a not-civilized period) ? And something more real than the catholic immaterial post-death moral ? |
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| Author |
| Posted on 2008-11-21 10:23:25 |
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I'm not sure you can equate power with morality given the times.
Why look back with 21st Century eyes?
If there was iron to mine, miners would work to eat to live and raise families. The boss would profit and his accountant would keep a ledger.
Where is the book?
Burned when the Swedish elite were slaughtered by the Danes in 1520?
So Protestants ruled the day.
500 years later and you want to know if the Swedes are hiding a little secret from the French?
Or more clever? |
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| Author |
| Posted on 2008-11-21 20:17:36 |
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| laaran |
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Where is the book?
There is probably no book. People in the middle age were not writing texts for us 600 years later.
But historians are used to work with few information.
500 years later and you want to know if the Swedes are hiding a little secret from the French?
If they kept selling iron, and they hide it, they hide it pretty bad.
This is exactly what you think (and what a person thinks when he/she reads quickly about that period).
That means : they hide nothing at all.
If they stopped selling iron, and they hide it, hum, I think they are complicated mad, and I really don't understand why they hide it.
I'm not sure you can equate power with morality given the times.
Why look back with 21st Century eyes?
Because my 21st century eyes are sad with looking back at the 20st century, so I look farther.
And I don't understand the meaning of "given the times".
Do you think "the middle age was an horrible dark period for 8th century on Europe" ?
Don't you think "it is a bit long, such a long dark period ; there is a mistake somewhere" ? |
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| Author |
| Posted on 2008-11-21 21:41:13 |
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Given the times = In those days...(1400s or middle ages)
I wonder if the powerful were held up to the standards of morality
expected in today's world.
And it's funny your obsession with the iron, because in today's terms it could be considered the modern equivalent of WMD- Weapons of mass destruction.
It is a mysterious part of history- the Dark Ages - you are right that many things must have happened and we don't have all the records to discover all that went on. Some historians job to figure it all out.
Yes, there must be mistakes to correct. |
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| Author |
| Posted on 2008-11-21 22:09:07 |
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| laaran |
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And it's funny your obsession with the iron, because in today's terms it could be considered the modern equivalent of WMD- Weapons of mass destruction.
Ah ah.
Yes, you want to know.
It is partly true, iron could be used for weapons.
But there was more deadly than iron, and in Europe. And people used rarely these more deadly tools.
Those who were creating the weapons deliberately used iron for weapons and armors, only iron.
It was dark, mysterious and pretty.
And I think you must discover beauty. So I tell a bit more. There was steel. But not for weapons or armors.
I wonder if the powerful were held up to the standards of morality
expected in today's world.
Then wonder.
What shall I say ? You are lazy, and you never enter an history library ? |
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| Author |
| Posted on 2008-11-21 22:13:36 |
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| laaran |
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For the steel, maybe Jeanne d'Arc used it for her armor.
It was bad, maybe the first person who used steel for an armor.
But she was a woman.
Women often have the worst ideas, especially french women. This is why Moise and Jesus and Mahomet were men.
And this is why english burnt her. |
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| Author |
| Posted on 2008-11-22 08:42:39 |
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I wonder if the powerful were held up to the standards of morality
expected in today's world.
Then wonder.
What shall I say ? You are lazy, and you never enter an history library ?
No, I'm not lazy. I just left a war zone that was a walking, talking, living historical museum. |
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| Author |
| Posted on 2008-11-22 09:48:27 |
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| laaran |
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If we consider history, every place is a war zone.
Of course, there are war between humans, easy to see.
And more hidden wars, between more hidden forces.
But you are not lazy, that is fine. Why don't you visit Paris ? |
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| Author |
| Posted on 2008-11-28 12:02:21 |
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| laaran |
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Of course, there may be one reason (for the silence about this subject).
Some kept selling much iron to everybody from 1400 to 1450. And we shall not accuse these people today, accusing people is always bad. Oh, I am bad in fact, that is cool.
So there were other ones.
It is proven for these ones, I don't say that they were the only ones.
These ones were the basque of northern Spain.
They have a rare language (in Europe), and they consider that it justifies their immoral attitude (because this is just one example of their immoral attitude, which was rather common through history).
For the language, that deserves some protection, but the French and Spanish government in Europe are attacking all forms of basque culture, so why protect it ? If they want protection, basque scan just move to other iron mines.
For example, those of the finnish people, who, strangely, have a nearby language.
The spanish also got money from this trade. As the basques were paying taxes to the spanish state.
And as Posthuman loved the picture of a catholic priest of that time in Spain, she can probably care for the fate of Spain in the next few years. Of course, the help of Serbia will probably help very little, but who else wants to help the spanish government ?
One week ago, there was a pro-Franco demonstration in Spain. A government that accepts that does not deserve to be in European Union. Not more than the italian president after his racist words.
But Europe is weak or coward. |
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| Author |
| Posted on 2008-11-28 12:11:04 |
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| laaran |
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Hum.
I am a bit exagerating for the basques.
They were probably exporting iron to arabic countries during the middle-age.
They don't tell much about it, and it was rather hidden in that time.
Of course, in the middle of two catholic countries, we can understand this silence.
So they were sharing our "catholic" iron with muslim countries.
On one hand, it is terribly catholic. Sharing.
On the other hand, it is terribly not-catholic. Helping muslim.
And in fact, that was probably necessary. After all, it is not written "these mines are only for catholics, and if you keep them forever, no one will attack you". So they were selling iron to muslims, and the muslim stopped attacking Spain for a long time.
It is not really an immoral attitude.
(although the really moral attitude is of course to create an army with the iron and kill all menacing muslims, and offer the muslim countries to free not-human animals) |
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| Author |
| Posted on 2008-11-28 12:20:41 |
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| laaran |
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Ah, and the finnish people tried to apply the completely moral attitude.
Unfortunately, they never did it completely, and it seems that the russians never really forgot the past, and they were a bit violent in the 20th century with finnish people.
It is a problem, some people try to be moral, but they don't do it completely.
The finnish (with the help of swedish, for example a family Vasa) killed russians, and didn't share the iron, yes. But they never offered the russian country to free not-human animals. So it failed. |
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| Author |
| Posted on 2008-11-30 12:35:02 |
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| laaran |
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Oh, and two more information (that most swedish know for the first one, and most french people know for the second one) :
- Vasa is not at all middle-age, the wars of Vasa are wars of Renaissance (and not the beginning of Renaissance, really the middle of it). This war proves that Renaissance brought violent ideas and methods.
- the 130 years war between France and England was also limited. For example, the english troops never attacked Paris, although they could. It seems their main goal was the territory of Normandie, the ones who 300 years earlier attacked England (in the times of Guillaume le Conquérant). We call it England-France war, because Normandie is and was part of France. But that does not mean that all parts of France decided to get involved in the fight. Many were annoyed with the presence of english troops, but not willing to make the fight a large one (it was long, but not that large). Maybe it was the same in England. Maybe many english people never wanted to get involved in this war. We can't really compare with modern times, the idea of nation have changed the process of wars. |
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| Author |
| Posted on 2008-11-30 19:34:48 |
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| cross_ide |
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[b]
Then wonder.
What shall I say ? You are lazy, and you never enter an history library ?
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<i>So, in the next stage, Swedish genetics expert Marie Allen analyzed DNA from a vertebrae, a tooth and femur bone and matched and compared it to that taken from two hairs retrieved from a book that the 16th-century Polish astronomer owned, which is kept at a library of Sweden's Uppsala University where Allen works.</i>
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/Arti...=SciTech
Pretty cool that people are out in the field/lab applying their knowledge. Here's to Laraan!! Maybe he'll find a couple of christ's pubic hairs in some ancient bible. Was JC a womanizer or not?! STD's?! Maybe he sacrificed himself, because he was already dying of AIDS?!
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| Author |
| Posted on 2008-11-30 22:50:03 |
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| laaran |
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Why "pubic" hair ?
So first, you send here the pornographic Britney Spear, and now the pubic hair of dead people ?
We accept the pornographic russian pictures, because they are poor starving people, but it is not your situation. Please keep your dirty ideas. |
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| Author |
| Posted on 2008-12-03 12:12:38 |
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| laaran |
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I could read the book of Copernic again yesterday.
Does this picture change the meaning of the text, or do I understand it better ?
No.
Does this picture help me to understand the life of Copernic ? It can help to understand the life of Copernic, maybe, but not "help me", because I don't care for it. He never wrote about it, and I never cared about it (except knowing that he got knowledge from a long trip in Italy).
Also, the canadian team decides to show Copernic (or what they think is Copernic) as an old man.
Canadians like connecting astronomy and old people.
There is only one famous canadian astronomer. Hubert Reeves.
We never hear about younger canadian astronomer. It is a bit insulting for all people who work in astronomy and are just 30 or 40 or even 50 years old. |
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