| Author |
| Posted on 2006-09-11 07:31:43 |
|
|
| Bac |
 |
 |
|
Just a little preface to this post: I realize this post will likely cause much debate and dissent from many of you. As you understand, this is simply my opinion and I felt I wanted to express it as clearly and succinctly as possible. This is likely an important/difficult subject to many of you - well, I know it is because I've been right in the middle of many a heated debate around this subject in this very forum over the past five years. Anyway, I hope (however, futile that hope may be) that whatever discussion evolves will remain mature, intelligent and and not result in childish name calling or character assasination. Thank you. Now that I've excused this post to the best of my ability, here it is:
Let us remember on this fifth anniversary of the events that altered the course of history and have lead us where we are today.
Let us think of the 3,000 souls that were lost that day.
These were people going to work. Living normal lives like you and I.
They were, in many cases, friends, family, and they were certainly our fellow man.
What then had to be done about the ones who perpitrated this attack?
What to do...?
Do we say nothing and do nothing? Do we rebuke their act only with words?
Do we confront the criminal or stand meekly at a distance and wag our finger and perhaps mutter a few choice comments to ourselves?
Or maybe we should rationalize and justify such an assault on us? Some would say that is the answer.
I say that there is only one reasonable answer: Fight.
And there is only one acceptable outcome: We must win.
Let us not fool ourselves into thinking that the ones who did this are even remotely interested in anything less that total victory for their cause.
People, it is not simply about Israel, it's not just about the United States of America. Just as with Nazis it was not just about Poland or France or even the jews. It's about the world. You and me. Me and You.
It's been said by many (often very intelligent) people that our resistance to them will simply inspire others to join in their cause.
Perhaps so. Should that concern us?
It clearly doesn't concern them that what they do to us might merely strengthen our resolve and or increase our numbers. Therefore, it should not concern us.
We must expect to fight. We must expect sacrifice and hardship. They already understand this. Do we? I know we do, but will we accept it?
Get them before they get you.
Otherwise, the next attack may include you or someone you love as a victim. I don't want that. And I don't think anyone in their right mind would.
But we should all consider that before we "decide that fighting is evil rather than fighting evil."
And one last thing, if you believe in God - pray. Pray for your enemies as well as those you love. It won't end the need to fight, but it certainly may help to bring peace sooner that later.
God Bless! |
|
|
|
| Author |
| Posted on 2006-09-11 09:19:05 |
|
|
|
|
Good you added a preface. Good luck with the topic... |
|
|
|
| Author |
| Posted on 2006-09-11 09:34:20 |
|
|
|
|
Just a few questions: what are we fighting for and what do we want to win at the end of it?
Count me in for ending mindless violence, especially violence based on twisted religious misinterprations. This must be resisted, but can violence detroy violence? I doubt it.
You tell us our enemies have understood hardship and sacrifice but I can't see any of us giving up our way of life, even when threatened with death and destruction. Everyone clings to what they've got and denies any need to change, even as the planet burns up irrespective of terrorism.
If our actions and words are not steps to peace and instead they lead us to war, we are going backwards. I want to remove the reasons that turns Yorkshiremen into bombers and rich Saudis into evil masterminds and Texan cowboys into world crusaders and British leaders into poodles. Your proverb is true, Bac, we have too many raging fools.
We are losing the force for good within each of us and we all conspire to destroy harmony on earth. |
|
|
|
| Author |
| Posted on 2006-09-11 14:19:56 |
|
|
|
|
Its been a while since I didn’t write anything on this forum, but I just wanted to add to this thread that:
If everyone who wants to fight, go to war, kill people, place bombs in all kinds of places and destroy in general terms actually did it them selves there would be less problems in the world. The problem is they seem to find a way around to send someone else, which obviously makes things easier, except for the poor bastards who actually do something.
I see and hear many talk the talk, but very few walk the walk. |
|
|
|
| Author |
| Posted on 2006-09-11 15:50:43 |
|
|
| laaran |
|
 |
|
We will protect you if you give us some oil.
You just discovered more oil in the Mexican Gulf.
Else.
Let's Gods play with USA, like they played with us during World War I and Wolrd War II. |
|
|
|
| Author |
| Posted on 2006-09-11 17:08:21 |
|
|
| Posthuman |
|
 |
|
|
Or maybe we should rationalize and justify such an assault on us? Some would say that is the answer.
I say that there is only one reasonable answer: Fight.
And there is only one acceptable outcome: We must win.
Let us not fool ourselves into thinking that the ones who did this are even remotely interested in anything less that total victory for their cause.
People, it is not simply about Israel, it's not just about the United States of America. Just as with Nazis it was not just about Poland or France or even the jews. It's about the world. You and me. Me and You. |
You are right about one thing,maybe you should think about WHY (that assult had happen in the first place).
And,you really think that there is only one "reasonably" answer?So,you will accept it and give the same response? "I will fight you back"? 'Cause "We must win" has to mean that.And it also mean that someone has to lose. I mean,ok,life is life,that happens everywhere (not that it's good that it happens),but if I understand well,you say then that you and I are equal "me and you=you and me" Ok.That's nice.We are all the same. And that is not only about America.. ok.
But,if you hurt 'me' than we are not longer the same,and it's not alright anymore. If you say that we all should fight back,I may hurt you back.And it will not be nice anymore. No you=me unity anymore.
|
We must expect to fight. We must expect sacrifice and hardship. They already understand this. Do we? I know we do, but will we accept it?
Get them before they get you.
Otherwise, the next attack may include you or someone you love as a victim. I don't want that. And I don't think anyone in their right mind would.
|
There will be sacrifice?Expect sacrifice? They understand that and they accept it. We should do that too?More victims?
"Get them before they get you"? Is that some game?Yeah,I think I heard of it,children's game (irony?!) Hurt them before they hurt you. And justify that with words "I did it in the name of love for ones I love" To "protect" them.
|
And one last thing, if you believe in God - pray. Pray for your enemies as well as those you love. It won't end the need to fight, but it certainly may help to bring peace sooner that later.
God Bless! |
Oh this is the most "I can't believe you're saying this" part.
"Fight/kill and pray" ??!!! Are you serious?
"I will destory you,but don't worry,I will pray for you,pray for your soul to go to heaven" . Is that so?
I am really sorry if I sound sarcastic (maybe 'cause I am?),but I can barely see any sence in what you're saying here..
Or I 'pray' I got you all wrong..? |
|
|
|
| Author |
| Posted on 2006-09-11 17:16:15 |
|
|
|
|
speaking of Why...did you see that documentary "why we fight"?
Product Description
Why We Fight is the provocative new documentary from acclaimed filmmaker Eugene Jarecki (The Trials of Henry Kissinger) and winner of the Grand Jury Prize at the 2005 Sundance Film Festival.
Named after the series of short films by legendary director Frank Capra that explored America’s reasons for entering World War II, Why We Fight surveys a half-century of military conflicts, asking how – and answering why – a nation of, by and for the people has become the savings-and-loan of a government system whose survival depends on an Orwellian state of constant war.
The Why We Fight DVD features interviews and observations by a "who’s who" of military and Washington insiders including Senator John McCain, Gore Vidal, and Dan Rather. Beginning with President Dwight D. Eisenhower’s prescient 1961 speech warning of the rise of the "military industrial complex," Why We Fight moves far beyond the headlines of various American military operations to the deeper questions of why America seemingly is always at war. What are the forces – political, economic, and ideological – that drive us to clash against an ever-changing enemy? Just why does America fight? Unforgettable, powerful and at times disturbing, Why We Fight on DVD will challenge viewers long after the last fade-out. |
|
|
|
| Author |
| Posted on 2006-09-11 17:28:49 |
|
|
| Realphilip747 |
|
 |
|
Rest in Peace to the victims of the World Trade Center terrorist attacks
Cant believe that it has been five years already.
Dale it should be a national holiday for remembrance, or atleast have the morning off, so that everyone can watch the ceremonies every year. |
|
|
|
| Author |
| Posted on 2006-09-11 17:34:35 |
|
|
| laaran |
|
|
|
I agree with Philip :) |
|
|
|
| Author |
| Posted on 2006-09-11 19:13:17 |
|
|
| Quetzal |
|
 |
|
i aggre with back, no one should die in these way..
but i would to associate to this remember, of the 200 millions people who died everyyears. and espeacelly the 10 millions child who died by hungryness, those who died for the lack of hospital, or just because they can have to fresh water.. and this everyyears...
well a little calcul show that 10millions / 365 = 27 000 child per day.. all around the world...
well sure somes will say that i don't understand, you know it was some american citizen, rich traders, some people really important for buisness in the world.. yep it's true, there more important than these nothing-children..
hm, i prefers to think they where just human being if you want to know than to so much about them.. it's sad, and i've got compation for those cry one of their parent or eibhour, or just of their national citizen..
but i would those too, cry for these unmediatic mass murder, which is built on the closed eyes of many of us.. or of our journalist or our dirrigent... who cares, you now for a minute, just a minute,
thanks |
|
|
|
| Author |
| Posted on 2006-09-12 01:25:26 |
|
|
| xxkellyxx |
| kelly |
|
 |
|
All the victims and their families have naturally been in my thoughts today.
As for the larger problem...I don't personally believe that terrorism can defeat terrorism.
3,000 lives is a lot of lives lost. Many more than 3,000 civilians have been killed in Iraq during the US and UK occupation of the country. Maybe some believe that the difference is that one set of deaths are intentional while the other are accidental, merely a negative side effect to a necessary war. I doubt that the friends and relatives of the dead can or will make such a distinction. There have been too many lives lost thanks to religious and political fascism, and the West are as guilty of this as any terrorist organisation.
I personally think the anniversary of 9/11 would be more aptly used to demonstrate the need for peace, and not to condone yet more violence. JMHO though (and I rarely get involved in these debates anymore for the reasons Bac's disclaimed stated. I hope this discussion remains on topic!). |
|
|
|
| Author |
| Posted on 2006-09-12 12:56:33 |
|
|
| Shobar |
|
 |
|
Let us think thousands Afghan civilians souls that were lost during us & allies invasion and more innocent souls lost during the occupation and even now when the puppet government is in charge. Let us not forget that thousands of Afghans have lost their lives ‘by accident’ in goal to get dead/alive one man (Osama Bin Laden) who believed responsible for 9/11 tragedy. While OBL still kicking from mountainous Afghan/Pakistan territory and while more Afghan innocent lives still lost ‘by accident’ due to air bombing the oil pipelines already build thus us now securing control of vast oil and gas reserved of Central Asia
Let us think the 46,420 (up to now) Iraqi civilians souls that were lost during illegal invasion & occupation of so called 'world police' country that believe it's okay to murder people 'by accident' and in the way to promote ‘democracy’ to ‘barbaric people’ thus Arab. Let us not forget the reason to invade Iraq was based on lie, lie about WMD that Iraq under Saddam obviously didn’t have during the invasion except a bounty of oil deposit within it soil. Let us not hide the truth that Iraq now is a place for people so called terrorist grow and gain more support.
The Afghan people and Iraq people obviously our fellow man who feels hurt when someone hurt them and who feels grief when their friend, family, love ones die and who angry if someone steal their property. An Iraqi’s Perspective - A Letter to George W. Bush
The question now…who is next will be the victim of excessive action by some super power country led by leader that publicity known lying and some of its citizen that always feel insecure and willing to attack first in order to defend themselves and some of its rich citizen that never satisfied by the wealth that they have?
Will it be Iran?
Syria?
Lebanon (though destroyed already)?
Or North Korea which is I think has small chance since un-significant of it soil resources?
Pardon me, it’s not my intention to divert attention of innocent people who lost their lives on 9/11 but compared to what happened in Afghanistan & Iraq in retaliation of 9/11, it was nothing.
God forbid such 9/11 tragedy happened again but you sure know why THEY must fight you back.....don't you? |
|
|
|
| Author |
| Posted on 2006-09-12 16:43:00 |
|
|
|
|
Yep, fair enough I do agree with the majority of thoughts above.
Those God damn bastards did a terrible thing 5 years ago! And just as with the rest of the right thinking world, I was repulsed with the events. I have always thought of myself as having a close (albeit non direct) connection with the States and especially NYC, maybe due to the large Irish population there (both legal and ILLEGAL!!) However, the USA had a great opportunity to bring the rest of the world past 9/11 while it had the sympathy of the the world. Now, I'm definitely not saying that nothing should have been done - Damn right something should have been done. I just feel that if maybe a little bit more time had been given into uniting the world into action, we wouldn't have so much of the resulting anti-Americanism and maybe a better outcome. Ok, I'm no military strategist so what do I know+
Yep, the coalition forces went into Afganistan and got the Taliban due to direct links to Osma! Fair enough!!! But what's the story with Irag? Weapons of Mass Distruction? Where? Forcing Regime change? This is actually against international law. A liberating force? Ok, good intentions and I'm sure there's many thousands of Iraq's happy with what was happened there. But come on you (brave) men out there. I know hte majority serve there country in an exemplory manner but the few stories that come out about abuse and murders and beatings don't help the cause of a "liberating army". Oil? Was 9/11 an excuse for Bush junior to finsh off what his dad started?
Look, I'm just asking some hard questions. Devil's Advocate, if I may.
Yes 3000 people died and by fuk, someone's gotta pay but the main man is still alive. And what of the 100000 or so lives in Iraq? Are these peoples lives valued any less? I think, if many of us are true to ourselves, we would answer yes.
Now before you all go off on one against me, remember what I said at the start of my post. Something had to be done but could it have been done any different?
To finish, I'd like to add that just like the rest of you, my thoughts are with the families and friends (and America) of those lost 5 years ago.
K |
|
|
|
| Author |
| Posted on 2006-09-12 16:55:42 |
|
|
|
|
K, perhaps your signature quote from Bender is quite appropriate. Some people are comparing their lives to the rich and powerful, and deciding to kill themselves, senselessly. |
|
|
|
| Author |
| Posted on 2006-09-12 17:15:02 |
|
|
|
|
;o) I agree. I was pissed off with the now materialistic Dublin, so much so, that I got the hell outta there. We need to go back to the basics of humanity and not be so greedy. |
|
|
|
| Author |
| Posted on 2006-09-12 20:01:49 |
|
|
| Realphilip747 |
|
|
|
Just as I expected from what's his face, typical typical |
|
|
|
| Author |
| Posted on 2006-09-12 23:30:43 |
|
|
| laaran |
|
|
|
All this is too slow.
Why not use some real military methods ?
In October 1947, Hill and another Fort Detrick pathologist, Dr. Joseph Victor, traveled to Allied-occupied Japan to interview Shiro Ishii, head of Japan's wartime Unit 731. Ishii is regarded today the Rising Sun's counterpart to Joseph Mengele because of his diabolical Manchurian experiments which resulted in the brutal deaths of thousands of people. Upon returning to the U.S., Hill recommended immunity for Ishii and his scientists because, as he stated in a letter to his commander, "Evidence gathered in this investigation has greatly supplemented and amplified previous aspects of this field [biological warfare]. Such information would not be obtained in our own laboratories because of scruples attached to human experimentation."
So why don't you use biological warfare ?
We are sure that American army keeps on studying this field. So show what you have. Experiment with French people if you like... |
|
|
|
| Author |
| Posted on 2006-09-13 09:01:37 |
|
|
|
|
Bush's TV address to the nation the other night was a plea to stay the course and finish the job in Iraq...in Afghanistan...
If allied forces packed up and left the evil-doers, terrorists, xenophobic-infidel-neck-slicing-point-of-sword-conversion-Islamist-radicals would have a big party and take over power there. Subjugating the meek, with Koranic verses meant to inspire a new generation of jihadists to go forth int the world and kill anyone who doesn't look, act, or pray in their fashion.
Bush worries not so much about us and today- he forsees a future where terrorism grows unchecked and our children, grandchildren suffer the exports of violence and death from madmen...
Twisted, bitter old Imams spouting "death to the West!" with one-evil little eye on their shitworld backyards, they've allowed to decay amidst their backwardism.
Like flying hordes of pests, like locusts, mosquitos...
The terrorists are cockroaches, they hide impossible to kill them all.
For some of these Jihadists though they'd like to push the world to madness, war and destruction to fulfill their own fantasies of Armageddon. Pretty much what Bush foresees,eh?
Bob Marley and Bono foresee a world "where all the colors bleed into one"... That kind of inter-cultural mingling happens all over the planet in modern civilized societies. But not Afghanistan, not Iran, Saudi Kingdom? There is fear of something there. Men who want to stay among their own kind and foster one single mentality. To rule and control. Who has the harder job ? Who do you think will prevail? Who cares? Does it matter? |
|
|
|
| Author |
| Posted on 2006-09-13 09:32:59 |
|
|
|
|
Karl, can I have your iPod then...? |
|
|
|
| Author |
| Posted on 2006-09-13 09:40:29 |
|
|
|
|
If you can read Spanish, this might help the debate:
 |
|
|
|
| Author |
| Posted on 2006-09-13 09:43:22 |
|
|
|
|
Oh ok, a translation:
"I just decided that my nation is the entire planet"
"I feel part of any place in the world where nice things happen"
"And for me the nicest thing that exists is a hug"
"So my nation is wherever someone hugs"
... |
|
|
|
| Author |
| Posted on 2006-09-13 13:34:32 |
|
|
| Shobar |
|
|
|
|
Bush's TV address to the nation the other night was a plea to stay the course and finish the job in Iraq...in Afghanistan...
If allied forces packed up and left the evil-doers, terrorists, xenophobic-infidel-neck-slicing-point-of-sword-conversion-Islamist-radicals would have a big party and take over power there. |
And it was said by evil-doer, terrorist, racist-rightwingnut-notwithmeenemy-oilsucker-liar-crusader-Christian-radical, huh?
|
| Subjugating the meek, with Koranic verses meant to inspire a new generation of jihadists to go forth int the world and kill anyone who doesn't look, act, or pray in their fashion. |
Excuse me, please enlighten me as a Muslim which verses in the Qur'an that order to kill who doesn't look, act, or pray in their fashion!?
|
| he forsees a future where terrorism grows unchecked and our children, grandchildren suffer the exports of violence and death from madmen... |
Ow sure...everyone who seek justice and try to be free from oppression is a madman...yeah right!
|
| Bob Marley and Bono foresee a world "where all the colors bleed into one"... That kind of inter-cultural mingling happens all over the planet in modern civilized societies. But not Afghanistan, not Iran, Saudi Kingdom? There is fear of something there. Men who want to stay among their own kind and foster one single mentality. To rule and control. Who has the harder job ? Who do you think will prevail? Who cares? Does it matter? |
Modern civilized societies??
Excuse me, could you explain to me what makes a society can gain label as modern civilized one? What are the standards?
If the standard only where inter-cultural mingling happens, do you seriously think that Afghanistan, Iran, Saudi Kingdom are not Modern civilized societies? |
|
|
|
| Author |
| Posted on 2006-09-13 14:47:21 |
|
|
|
|
Shobar, by many standards, Afghanistan, Iran, Saudi Kingdom are not modern civilised societies. It is of course ironic that the Western world deals with the three of them differently: occupation/liberation, confrontation and cooperation respectively...
But for me modern civilisation involves human rights and all sorts of equality and tolerance (religious, ethnic, gender, political).
Have a look at the 1948 UN declaration of human rights, which claims to be universal:
http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html
Check off the articles against the reality and you can see which societies are closer to being civilised. Most have a long way to go and some also have to admit their hypocrisy.
This also answers part of my earlier questions: these universal rights are what we should all be fighting for. |
|
|
|
| Author |
| Posted on 2006-09-13 16:11:30 |
|
|
| Realphilip747 |
|
|
|
Hi Karl,
Universal rights is a very Judeo-Christian ideal, nice to see you supporting it :) |
|
|
|
| Author |
| Posted on 2006-09-14 00:28:48 |
|
|
| Emilianino |
|
 |
|
Sometimes, or in my opinion a lot of times, it's so much nicer-healthier-better just to leave churches, whatever they are, and walk far from them.
There are parks, green lands, deserts, oceans which are so beautiful and wordless... that even the best religious book can't really explain.
Or maybe those books were originally made as holiday-life brochures??
Boh... Sorry for the religious people here, but I feel more than right to have this super-naive vision. Arguing for something could be ok. Killing maybe not, eh? |
|
|
|